(Art Usage: Response)
(In Favor)
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* --[[User:Careax|Careax]] 19:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC) : addresses the concerns of FH purists while hopefully being less offensive to fans of the BH/KJA novels.
* --[[User:Careax|Careax]] 19:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC) : addresses the concerns of FH purists while hopefully being less offensive to fans of the BH/KJA novels.
* --[[User:Mcada|Mcada]] 01:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC) Still maintains the purity of the FH novels without offending people about what's cannon and what isn't.
* --[[User:Mcada|Mcada]] 01:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC) Still maintains the purity of the FH novels without offending people about what's cannon and what isn't.
* --[[User:JubalHarshaw|JubalHarshaw]] 15:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC) : '''"original"''' and '''"extended"''' (or '''"expanded"''') is much more neutral and preferable in my opinion.
=== Opposed ===
=== Opposed ===

Revision as of 15:02, December 31, 2007

This page is designed to be a general forum for discussion on issues related to this wiki. It will also, over time, be a location for useful links to articles related to the wiki's maintenance.

Please sign your comments with four tildas, which will automatically insert your signature and timestamp.

Art Usage

Dear Dune Fans,

Excuse me, I'm new here, but I'm wondering what is the general consensus here about using "Artist's interpretations" of characters/devices/scenes/planets on this Wiki? It seems that most people accept stills from the Dune movie and miniseries as acceptable pictures for articles, but what about "unofficial" artwork?


Outwarddoodles 00:32, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Outwarddoodles. This is a great (and quite tricky) question! I'm torn over this, partly because of the canon/non-canon issues. A couple of artistic interpretations have already been added (including the logo), so a precedent has been set. And allowing more flexibility with artwork would help liven up the wiki and increase the number of featurable articles. But I worry it will send a mixed signal with regards to what is acceptable on this wiki. So I don't know.
What do other people think? Cheers, Careax 07:23, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Prescience vs. ESP

Is it me, or does anybody else notice that frank herbert seemed to shy away from overtly magical/psychic abilities (though there are some questionable activities that seemingly could only occur through psychic/magical activities: face dancer mental imprinting of their vicitims being one), and yet Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson seem to embrace it (the sorceresses of rossak)? anyhow, i just wanted to start a discussion about whether or not we are talking about magic/telepathy/psychics or prescience. what did herbert believe? personally, i always got the impression that he was trying to say that humans, given the proper breeding/training could achieve amazing feats of computation, which to commoners would seem like magic (prescience) as opposed to outright magical/mystical abilities (psychics). is there are page on this somewhere?

-- 00:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


Added a template for quoting things. Please see template:quote to see how to use it. w00t!

--Jsblack 06:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Canon versus Non-canon

(Some of the discussions below were copied from other discussion pages or user pages on this wiki).

Hi Careax,

Regarding canon vs. non-canon works, Frank herbert wrote a book called "Eye" some time ago. In this book was a chapter with a host of illustrations and short snippets about the Dune universe which occur sometime between "Dune" and "Dune Messiah". I am in the process of getting my hands on this book. If I can incorporate the material from that book into this wiki, would it be considered canon or con-canon? Thanks, --Mcada 02:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Mcada. If Frank Herbert wrote it, then I think it's definitely canon. --Careax 03:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Careax,

Thanks for that. Another question: the new books being released by BH & KJA set after Chapterhouse - canon or non-canon? I ask because they are apparently based on FH's outlines. Cheers, --Mcada 03:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Mcada. Personally I'd be inclined to consider them non-canon. Although they're based on Frank's notes, the actual novels weren't written by him. So it could be argued his plots and character definitions have been subtly altered by BH and KJA. That's my opinion, and I suspect the opinion of quite a few other fans (especially the hard-core ones). Now if it turns out they've left some unedited chapters in there that FH wrote, that will make it really complicated! :-)
What do you think? I just read your user page, and found the answer to this question. I agree with you on the BH and KJA novels. I think they make for a fun read, but they're definitely not of the same calibre as FH's Dune novels. --Careax 05:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I was SOOO excited when I found this wiki! I'm glad I'm able to contribute to it in whatever way I can. I do have some concerns about canon/noncanon. Since all of the new novels are copyrighted by the Herbert Partners Ltd (in various incarnations) and presumably approved by the remaining Herberts, shouldn't those be considered canon? I'll be happy to go with the convention of the entire wiki, but I just wanted to address that. Thanks again!

Dolza42 03:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I was also wondering: I managed to get my little hands on a copy of The Dune Encyclopedia. It has a wealth of information, some of which is based directly on Frank Herbert canon material, while other parts are definitely non-canon. Can they be included here? Cheers, --Mcada 03:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, this is a sticky issue for sure. Personally, I think that only material written by Frank himself should be considered canon. Even if it contradicts later writing also by him.
For me, the problem with considering anything copyrighted by the Herbert Partners Ltd as canon is that it envelopes the new Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson novels. While they make for an entertaining read, and contain a great deal of continuity, they lack the depth of Frank's work and contain a variety of plot contradictions compared to his novels. You make a strong argument Dolza42. But I don't think having the tacit approval of some of the Herberts is enough.
I'm not a hardcore fan who thinks they should be totally ignored. As I say, I think they add value to the Duniverse, but in much the same way as any competant fan writing does. I think we (contributors to this wiki) have been fairly thorough and detail-oriented. But we are definitely not canon.
As for the Dune Encyclopedia, that too brings up some canon concerns, in much the same way as the B Herbert/K Anderson novels. While it contains some writing by Frank, it also contains other people's writings that aren't quite the same. But having said that, well done on getting hold of a copy Mcada! By all means add information from it into the wiki. I'd love to read it, and I'm sure others would too. :-)
So to summarize my ramblings, I think a strong line has to be drawn in the sand, marking what is canon and what is non-canon. Otherwise it all gets messy, people get confused, and the value of this wiki is compromised. I don't think it's important where the writing comes from. If it's by Frank Herbert and it's related to Dune, it's canon. So any short stories or exerpts from the Dune Encyclopedia that were written by Frank, and the relevant material from Eye. So my suggestion is this:
  • Dune material written exclusively by Frank Herbert: canon.
  • Dune material written by Brian Herbert/Kevin Anderson (including the sequel novels), or coming from sources that were approved by Frank Herbert or Herbert Partners Ltd (including approved games, the movies/mini-series, and the Dune Encyclopedia): non-canon, but worthy of inclusion in the wiki with a caveat label.
  • Other Dune material: non-canon and not worthy of inclusion in this wiki.
But let me know what you guys think. This is an open project and your ideas and thoughts are appreciated. I hope my opinions on this topic don't put you off. I think there's some great teamwork forming here, and this wiki has the potential to be a massive resource for fans of Dune. --Careax 04:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think that the Dune Encyclopedia really shouldn't be considered canon, since KJA, BH, and Willis McNelly say that it's non-canon. Careax also makes a strong argument for canon. I think that my jury is still out for canon inclusion of the new novels. Until I can come up with a better position, the currently accepted definition is great, and I fully support it. Thanks for your opinion, Careax! Dolza42 17:52, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I'm also of the opinion that anything not written by Frank Herbert is non-canon. However, just so that you all know, I will be including things from the Dune Encyclopedia here since it contains lots of great articles that can enrich this wiki. I will, however, make it clear that the source material is the encyclopedia, and that it is non-canon. Meanwhile, itr also contains excellent analytical essays on canon characters that could add some depth to the canon articles. - --Mcada 12:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I'm looking forward to seeing some of the Dune Encyclopedia info. Did some of FH's writing go into the encyclopedia? I thought I read somewhere he made some small contributions to it too. --Careax 21:54, 17 October 2006 (PDT)
Apparently he did write some of the articles, but they were under a pseudonym. He did, however, write the forword, giving some of the examples of the histories "officially" revealed of certain aspects of the Dune saga. It's possible, therefore, that the articles he mentions in the forword are his, but there't no direct evidence of this. If I manage to discover exactly which articles he wrote, I'll let you guys know straight away. --Mcada 09:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I dunno. I do believe that most of the modern Dune material should be considered canon because nothing has been made to say that it isn't. It's essentially a major expansion on Franks material using his notes and plans for the series. Until an announcement is made that all material by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson is non-canon and does not apply to the Dune Universe, we should treat it as if it does. GruntyBalboa 17:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi GruntyBalboa. Those are fair points you raise. But the problem is the BH/KJA material doesn't have enough widespread support among the Dune fan community to rest comfortably next to FH's original material. At least that's from what I've seen and heard. Admittedly, I'm a bit biased, but who isn't one way or the other. And BH and KJA are never going to say their material is non-canon, so we need to find a decent, workable compromise.
At the same time, BH does hold control over Frank's estate, so there is some clear legal legitimacy there. And as you point out, the BH/KJA novels are based on Frank's notes (to what degree remains open for debate).
It's a tricky issue, and one several of us have given a lot of thought over the past couple of years. And those thoughts have steered us toward a fairly strict set of content guidelines which define what is acceptable on this wiki. I recently tried to clarify the consensus reached (so far) on the Content Guidelines page.
You're right: nothing has been said by the media to define the BH/KJA material as "non-canon". It's a judgment call on our part. And ultimately, calling the BH/KJA novels "non-canon" can be seen as something of a cosmetic label. We still consider their characters, etc. worthy of inclusion here. But we want to easily identify them as not being original FH creations. This is the best idea so far that allows us to proverbially "have our cake and eat it" - to satisfy hardcore original FH fans and simultaneously include the newer BH/KJA material. Where it gets really tricky is with the cross-over characters, groups, etc.!
This topic probably needs fine-tuning, and it's good to have a fresh perspective on this, so I look forward to your insights going forward. Cheers, Careax 06:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

New template for content of unknown accuracy

I've created a new "Unknown" template (called by: {{unknown}}), which can be used on pages or for sections where the content seems legitimate, a) but doesn't look familiar (to an editor); and b) doesn't have any concrete references out there on the Web.

This came about because of the Tridea moon article. It looks legit, but I'm not certain. Does anyone remember coming across mention of it in a Dune novel?

I'm sure there are other articles this new template could be used for. If you see it on a page and know the source, please add a topic on that article's discussion page briefly outlining the source, and remove the template call. Thanks. --Careax 18:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the 'unknown template' is a good idea. With regard to the Tridea article, this is definitely non-canon. The Great House mentioned in the article is never mentioned in the Frank Herbert novels. It's possible the information comes from Hunters of Dune, though I haven't read it. I am certain, however, that it's non-canon. --Mcada 01:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

New featured article

I think it's time for a new 'featured article' on the main page (the current one's been up there since the beginning of December). If anyone has any suggestions please go to the Vote for Featured Article page. --Careax 18:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Um, that page is messed up...I've noticed that many pages on the site are going down in a similar manner...anyhow, I'd nominate Norma Cenva. I fixed it up, she's been in existance for...well, ever, she created/was involved in so many things in the Duniverse that it isn't funny

Hi Novelldracomancer. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "that page is messed up"? Are you talking about the Vote for Featured Article page or the main page? How is it messed up? Both load fine for me, but I might well be missing something. In which case I'd like to get it working fine. Thanks, Careax 07:37, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Appearances section

I really like the 'Appearances' section Kraytkiller7 has been adding to the bottom of new pages (e.g. Markon). I suggest we add this to all pages, over time. --Careax 05:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


Something I've been wanting to do for a while on this wiki is introduce userboxes. Personally I'm not a huge fan of them, although they are good for commending deserving users. A lot of wiki users also use them as a means of self-expression. I think both of these could be useful to this wiki, especially in building the user base and encouraging good contributions.

So I've come up with several simple userboxes. Some are designed to only be awarded by admins or senior contributors to other users. But some are open to all. Check out the current userboxes via their category.

I have a mentat userbox planned as well. But if anyone else has ideas for cool userboxes just bring them up. We don't want to go crazy with them, but other ideas would be cool.

Cheers, Careax 06:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Stub articles

I'm glad you added stub expansion to the "to do" list JubalHarshaw - I'd totally forgotten about that! I went through some stub articles yesterday, and some really aren't stubs. So I just removed the template ref. Of course, I was the one who added those calls in the first place, normally when the article was already a decent length. So it's my bad! :-) --Careax 16:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

It's all good. The handling of stub articles always seems to be a matter of some debate on wikis. I personally prefer to create a stub article, even if only one line, if I find a topic in an article that needs a link. To me it seems that stubs are much more friendly than a red link, "hey come improve me!" so to speak. :) JubalHarshaw 23:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

More canon vs. non-canon

While I am pretty sure what I am going to say will fall on deaf ears, or maybe even get ignored, I must speak my peace.

I find the whole canon vs. non-canon discussion ridiculous, especially with the reasons given.

I am the first to admit that the other novels written by B. Herbert and Anderson are not "as good" as the original novels, then again, all of the six originals novels weren't "great" in my opinion. To me, GEoD was a painful book to read and finish, where it did not match the quality of the previous 3 books. I also found Chapterhouse to be a difficult read. (And I have read other Herbert novels which I found very disappointing)

But I find contradictions in the reasonings not to include the Herbert/Anderson novels as canon. Especially given the following statements:

Yeah, this is a sticky issue for sure. Personally, I think that only material written by Frank himself should be considered canon. Even if it contradicts later writing also by him.

For me, the problem with considering anything copyrighted by the Herbert Partners Ltd as canon is that it envelopes the new Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson novels. While they make for an entertaining read, and contain a great deal of continuity, they lack the depth of Frank's work and contain a variety of plot contradictions compared to his novels. You make a strong argument Dolza42. But I don't think having the tacit approval of some of the Herberts is enough.

On one hand, you decry the inconsistencies from Herbert/Anderson, yet admit in the same breath that Herbert contradicted himself. If the sole basis is on contradictions, then eliminating the Herbert/Anderson novels on the basis of contradictions is insufficient.

Furthermore, if not having the approval of Herbert is enough, then what will satisfy the Dune fans? Would it take Herbert rising from the grave and speaking in a booming voice that he agrees with the tenor and tone of what Herbert/Anderson have done?

The fact is, Frank and Brian has conversations that we will never be privy to. Fathers and sons often have conversations that no one else is aware of. Just because we read the books does not give us true insight into the intentions of the man.

I will not for a moment say that Brian is nearly as good of a writer as his father. But on the same token, Brian had access to information that none of us will ever know. And given that Frank and Brian did work on projects together prior to Frank's death, the continual bashing of Brian (And Anderson) is silly, juvenile and immature, and the relegation of his continuation of his fathers work is an insult to the legacy of his father.

As fans, we are owed nothing. I bet if Frank had written Dune 7, people would still have found something to complain about. The fact of the matter is, a lot is assumed with these issues, without the benefit of clear cut reasoning, only subjective opinions, and contradictions in opposition to contradictions.

Therefore, without the benefiting of a living Frank Herbert, who are any of us to say what he would or would not have done with the Dune universe.


Hey Rebel02,

You make some very good arguments, to be sure. However, the works of BH and KJA will continue to be considered non-canon in this wiki, if only for the sake of purity. You are right in that BH&KJA have access to material that te rest of us do not, and that they have used much this material to flesh out their stories. However, we here at the Dune Wiki are essentially purists at heart, and wish to keep the universe created by FH fairly contained.

Some points to actually consider however:

  • You quote Dune Wiki founder and admin Careax as saying that FH contradicted himself. He actually did not. Careax's point was that had FH contradicted himself, the work would still be considered canon.

Having said that, we are still more than happy to continue to develop the BH&KJA content here.

Thanks for your input and interest. Please feel free to continue to contribute to this wiki. If anyone wishes to continue to discuss canon vs. non-canon, please be our guest. Cheers, --Mcada 03:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Rebel02. Just a note to say the reason I haven't responded sooner to your comment is because I've been on vacation. As Mcada mentions, you do raise some good points. And I think I speak for all the admins and regular contributors on this wiki when I say we don't want constructive contributors to feel they will be ignored or their opinions will be discarded without consideration. So I wanted to respond to you too.
You might notice that I myself have contributed a fair bit of content to this wiki on BH&KJA topics, characters, and events. So, like Mcada, I'm not hostile to their Dune work being included here.
I totally agree with your argument about if FH had written Dune 7. George Lucas' later Star Wars movies are great example of how fickle/demanding/disappointed (delete where applicable!) people can be. And I'm sure FH and BH did have private conversations about the Dune universe which none of us are privy to. But the issue becomes one of drawing lines in the sand. The BH&KJA Dune novels are very contentious within the Dune fan community. We want this wiki to be inclusive to fans regardless of where they fall in this spectrum. Is that possible? Maybe not. But we want to try.
That's why right now everything not written by FH is considered non-canon. The working definition of canon for this wiki is basically: Dune novels recognized by all fans as genuine. The only Dune novels recognized by all fans are FH's novels.
But within this broad bracket of non-canon material only stuff endorsed by FH or his estate is welcomed. Right now that basically boils down to the BH&KJA material, the Dune Encyclopedia, and the officially endorsed screen adaptations (some other material might have slipped through but will get cleaned up as things progress). So it's not like we're just lumping the BH&KJA stuff with fan fiction or unauthorized stories any old writer tries to bolt on to FH's work.
We also don't want this wiki to become a bashing ground for BH&KJA. They have provided continuity to the Dune universe. But that doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions (in the appropriate locations). That's why I introduced those three userboxes where people can express their opinions on the BH&KJA novels on their user pages.
Although the balancing of BH&KJA content within this wiki has gained some cohesiveness (based on consensus), it is still evolving. The key is to develop it further through consensus. If that sounds patronizing, I apologize. It isn't meant to be. :-) --Careax 07:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

'Canon' versus 'Original' labels

The canon versus non-canon debate is still raging on here on the Dune Wiki, and I think it's best if it's addressed again. One or two wiki visitors have taken to immature tantrums and pointless vandalism because of this. But many rational users, including Dolza42, GruntyBalboa, and Rebel02 have expressed concerns over the topic too (see above discussions for more information).

The main reason for the canon/non-canon labels was to compromise with the purist Dune fans who consider the Brian Herbert/Kevin Anderson novels abominations (to use a popular Dune term!). Labeling material not from Frank's original novels allowed them to quickly identify them and ignore them. At the same time, we didn't want to exclude or alienate other people who do enjoy them from this wiki. The most logical term to differentiate the two seemed to be canon versus non-canon. And this was a term endorsed by the most frequent contributors of this wiki at that time.

The general rule to date has been that only the following sources are allowed on this wiki: a) novels by Frank Herbert (considered "canon"); b) novels by Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson (considered legitimate "non-canon"); c) the Dune Encyclopedia (written by neither but publically endorsed by Frank Herbert); and d) the movies, miniseries, video games, etc. endorsed by Frank or his estate. This way the wiki doesn't turn into a haven for fan fiction, parodies, etc.

I'd suggest th restriction as to what material is allowed on the Dune Wiki remains in place. But perhaps with a slight modification. Instead of labelling elements as "canon" versus "non-canon" (which seems to be a point of contention with some) how about if they are instead labelled as "original" versus "extended". Original would only include the novels written from start to finish by Frank Herbert, so basically his six novels up to and including Chapterhouse. Extended would include ONLY BH/KJA novels, the Dune Encyclopedia, and media (video games, movies, audio adaptations, etc.) officially endorsed by Frank or his estate.

Please vote below by creating a bullet point and adding four tildas to create your signature. Optionally, give a brief and courteous comment supporting your decision.

Cheers, Careax 19:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

In Favor

  • --Careax 19:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC) : addresses the concerns of FH purists while hopefully being less offensive to fans of the BH/KJA novels.
  • --Mcada 01:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC) Still maintains the purity of the FH novels without offending people about what's cannon and what isn't.
  • --JubalHarshaw 15:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC) : "original" and "extended" (or "expanded") is much more neutral and preferable in my opinion.


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