User talk:Careax/7

PDF
Hi Michael. Yes, I'd be very interested in that pdf file. Thanks. Andrew (Careax 14:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC))
 * Hi Careax. Here's the link: TheDune.ru: The Dune Encyclopedia It's too big to e-mail. Even zipped. Cheers, Michael --Mcada 02:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Stuff
Hey Careax, sorry I haven't been able to put in much input. I've recently gotten married and I've been overseas. Looking forward to putting in my two cents worth again though. Let me know if there's any existing articles you'd like me to review, or if there are new articles you want me to establish. Cheers, --Mcada 01:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi there, and congratulations to you! Good to have you back on the wiki. I've been swamped recently too, although my time is now freeing up a little. So I'm hoping to put in more time here.


 * First off, we probably need a new Featured Article for the home page (I suspect Caladan is getting a bit tired of all the attention! :-) ). Second, if you could take on one or two articles in the Rewrite category that would be great. I think I've basically got the 'List of Dune terminology' rewritten, but another pair of eyes would be cool. The other three probably need more work. I think they were ripped verbatim from Wikipedia, so the context and format is wrong for this wiki.


 * Also, I really like what Kraytkiller7 has done with the 'Appearances' section on his or her new articles. This would be nice to add to our existing articles. But that will take time.


 * Other than that I guess it's just a case of chipping away at new articles and polishing the existing ones. The novel and movie pages probably need to be reviewed, but we can tag-team on those, if you like.


 * I'd be very interested to hear your ideas on how we should progress. It seems like now we're over the 500 article margin we're in new territory. If we could get three or four other active users contributing good quality stuff in here I think things would really start buzzing. But how we do that, I don't know.


 * Cheers, Careax 07:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Careax,

Thanks for the well-wishes.

I'll have a look at the rewritten list and see what I can do. Meanwhile, I'll also have a look at the novel pages too, so that we can work out a plan. Kratykiller seems to have done some good work.

I've been telling my friends about the wiki. Hopefully some of them will be half-interested in contributing. We'll see!!! Cheers, --Mcada 20:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Doon
I would like a more specific explanation as to why my contribution has been removed. If a parody is not in any way related to the material it spoofs than I don't know what is. Perhaps I'm missing the big picture, in that case my username is somewhat justified. I am not trying to sound petulant or control. I am not saying that your decision to remove the Doon link was unjustifed or your judgement impaired. I could not find your email address and I apologize for making my ignorant own missunderstanding public.


 * Hi GloriousIdoit. I think your question is reasonable, and I appreciate you discussing this issue in a rational manner, as not everyone would. I deleted the Doon article because for me it falls outside the scope of this wiki.


 * The Dune wiki's goal is to catalog the fictional universe created by Frank Herbert and expanded by his son and Kevin J. Anderson. We're trying to avoid the inclusion of non-canon material (that is work not written by Herbert or officially endorsed by his estate), to prevent scope creep.


 * While clearly the Doon novel is somewhat connected to Dune (the former being a parody of the latter), it is not set in the Dune Universe, and wasn't written by or (as far as I can tell) officially endorsed by Frank Herbert or his estate. Regards, Careax 15:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Doon
Hey Careax,

Good to be back. Regarding Doon, no I don't think it should be included in this wiki. Like you, I believe it isn't relevant. It's a parody, possibly a good one, but not directly related to the Duniverse.

I had a look at the vandalism you mention. It looked like a series of random characters to me. I'm not sure we can stop acts of vandalism from happening, but if we keep a close eye on recent changes, we should be able to remove them and repair the damage before too many people see it.

The scope guidelines are a great idea. That way we can make it clear what is canon and what isn't. I'm still happy to consider the BH and KJA books non-canon. For me, it's less so an issue of the books not being written by FH, it's more that they're just not very good. I find the plotlines juvenile, the character names even more so, and the tie-ins to the FH material improbable, implausible, and diminishing of the mystery of the original texts.

Apart from points regarding canon material, I think the guidelines might also need to outline language rules, especially considering that despite the rules being posted elsewhere, some contributors still don't seem to follow them. Am I being too much of a stickler?

Let me know if you'd like more input. Cheers, --Mcada 06:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks much for the contributor star! I'm glad to be here and glad to help. I'll continue to improve the organization and content of the Dune Wiki to the best of my ability. JubalHarshaw 16:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome!
Hi. I came here after seeing a link posted by Edric over on Arrakeen. I was checking out a few entries on favorite topics and noticed the Norma Cenva "inventor of space-folding" attribution and decided to sign up. (She's a pet peeve of mine in general but...never mind! ;)

I read the canon vs. non-canon discussion above. I agree with your basic position (only things written by FH are canon, everything else is fanfic) but think there are some interesting ideas in fanfic that might be worthy of inclusion as long as they are appropriately sourced and marked as such. (Clam-powered ornithopters? No thank you!)

I haven't looked around enough yet to know if you have the Citation.php footnotes installed, but notes are a good way of handling this. Another idea would be to create two small inline images, one for "authorized fanfic" (the BH & KJA novels) and "non-authorized fanfic" (anything else) and insert these at the beginning of any paragraph or section containing such material.

Just some ideas!

Oh, by the way, I'm using Safari (2.0.3) to access the site and none of the Javascript buttons about the edit window seem to work. :( -SandChigger 21:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

JubalHarshaw
Hey Careax, I vote to make JubalHarshaw an Admin for this wiki. His contributions are excellent an he's been prolific in wikifying everything. Let me know what you think. Cheers --Mcada 01:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That's eerie! I was just thinking about that yesterday, and was going to ask what you thought. I agree with you, I think he'd make a great admin. Did you want to ask him if he'd like to? Or shall I? Cheers, Careax 04:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Great minds think alike! I'd love to ask him :-) --Mcada 06:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you both for your kind words and for considering me for admin. I gladly accept! I'm glad to be here and helping out any which way, and I will continue to improve and expand this Wiki, in the same manner as you've come to expect from me. If there's anything I can do, please let me know. JubalHarshaw 12:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

More canon vs. non-canon
User Note: I've copied the conversation below to the community portal discussion page, so it can be better followed and commented on there.

While I am pretty sure what I am going to say will fall on deaf ears, or maybe even get ignored, I must speak my peace.

I find the whole canon vs. non-canon discussion ridiculous, especially with the reasons given.

I am the first to admit that the other novels written by B. Herbert and Anderson are not "as good" as the original novels, then again, all of the six originals novels weren't "great" in my opinion. To me, GEoD was a painful book to read and finish, where it did not match the quality of the previous 3 books. I also found Chapterhouse to be a difficult read. (And I have read other Herbert novels which I found very disappointing)

But I find contradictions in the reasonings not to include the Herbert/Anderson novels as canon. Especially given the following statements:

Yeah, this is a sticky issue for sure. Personally, I think that only material written by Frank himself should be considered canon. Even if it contradicts later writing also by him.

For me, the problem with considering anything copyrighted by the Herbert Partners Ltd as canon is that it envelopes the new Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson novels. While they make for an entertaining read, and contain a great deal of continuity, they lack the depth of Frank's work and contain a variety of plot contradictions compared to his novels. You make a strong argument Dolza42. But I don't think having the tacit approval of some of the Herberts is enough. 

On one hand, you decry the inconsistencies from Herbert/Anderson, yet admit in the same breath that Herbert contradicted himself. If the sole basis is on contradictions, then eliminating the Herbert/Anderson novels on the basis of contradictions is insufficient.

Furthermore, if not having the approval of Herbert is enough, then what will satisfy the Dune fans? Would it take Herbert rising from the grave and speaking in a booming voice that he agrees with the tenor and tone of what Herbert/Anderson have done?

The fact is, Frank and Brian has conversations that we will never be privy to. Fathers and sons often have conversations that no one else is aware of. Just because we read the books does not give us true insight into the intentions of the man.

I will not for a moment say that Brian is nearly as good of a writer as his father. But on the same token, Brian had access to information that none of us will ever know. And given that Frank and Brian did work on projects together prior to Frank's death, the continual bashing of Brian (And Anderson) is silly, juvenile and immature, and the relegation of his continuation of his fathers work is an insult to the legacy of his father.

As fans, we are owed nothing. I bet if Frank had written Dune 7, people would still have found something to complain about. The fact of the matter is, a lot is assumed with these issues, without the benefit of clear cut reasoning, only subjective opinions, and contradictions in opposition to contradictions.

Therefore, without the benefiting of a living Frank Herbert, who are any of us to say what he would or would not have done with the Dune universe.

Rebel02

Hey Rebel02,

You make some very good arguments, to be sure. However, the works of BH and KJA will continue to be considered non-canon in this wiki, if only for the sake of purity. You are right in that BH&KJA have access to material that te rest of us do not, and that they have used much this material to flesh out their stories. However, we here at the Dune Wiki are essentially purists at heart, and wish to keep the universe created by FH fairly contained.

Some points to actually consider however:
 * You quote Dune Wiki founder and admin Careax as saying that FH contradicted himself. He actually did not. Careax's point was that had FH contradicted himself, the work would still be considered canon.

Having said that, we are still more than happy to continue to develop the BH&KJA content here.

Thanks for your input and interest. Please feel free to continue to contribute to this wiki. If anyone wishes to continue to discuss canon vs. non-canon, please be our guest. Cheers, --Mcada 03:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey hey
I was wondering what your thoughts were on getting a template together for "Characters". Something with like a box on the right, that would give all their vitals, such as what book they first apppeared in and such. Then we could have a standard list of content for each character, something like:

Summary, History (divided by book), Impact Quotes, Trivia/behind the scenes.

I'll try to work on something that i can show you :) peace, --Jsblack 00:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)